Dr. Pablo Campra recently gave an exclusive interview for Vivir con Salud, a health program of El Toro TV, in which he was asked for details about the technical report on the detection of graphene oxide in vaccines against COVID-19.
This is a key interview if you want an update on what graphene oxide is and what damage it causes in the organism, aside from knowing how Dr. Campra detected it in several vaccination vials.Orwell City translates the interview into English.
Juan Zaragoza: Welcome back, after this break that we have made for the advertisement. Today we have a surprise, as we mentioned before, and we're going to talk about a topic that isn't talked about much. And when it's talked about, it's shrouded in controversy. But I think it's important to talk about it. And to talk about it, moreover, with rigor. And that's why today we have the privilege of having with us... He's with us, online, the professor and doctor Pablo Campra Madrid. He's a full university professor. He has a doctorate in Chemical Sciences and a degree in Biological Sciences. Welcome, Mr. Pablo.
Dr. Pablo Campra: Good day. Thank you for the invitation.
Juan Zaragoza: Well, then... We haven't yet explained what we're going to talk about and we want to talk about a report. If you allow me to call you by your first name...
Dr. Pablo Campra: Yes, yes, yes.
Juan Zaragoza: Well, we're on a first-name basis then.
Dr. Pablo Campra: A report that you have recently published. It's a technical report on the detection of graphene oxide in the COVID-19 vaccines. In the vaccines that are being used here in Spain. I... There we have it in the image. I have some questions I wanted to ask you and, well, also so that our viewers can understand this. You've found or have detected the presence of graphene oxide inside some vials. But I think it's important that we start by understanding what this graphene oxide thing is. What's reduced graphene oxide, specifically?
Well, graphene oxide is a nanomaterial that has been researched for decades. It was rediscovered a few years ago, and it has many industrial applications in biomedicine and many fields. It, basically, consists of a layer that's a mesh of hexagonal carbon atoms with double bonds that gives it electromagnetic properties and a dynamism that's responsible for the properties it has. It's a derivative of graphite by exfoliation. Exactly, the composition is the same. It's just that instead of having many layers bonded together, it appears as a maximum of 10 layers by definition.
Normally, graphene oxide in its pure state is intended to have only one layer. So that the viewers can understand it. Can you give us an example of graphite so that they know what it is. Sure. Graphite is a hexagonal mesh of carbon, like a network where six carbon atoms are joined in hexagon, but in which there are many overlapping layers and joined by bonding. So, that gives it different properties. Graphene isn't just a layer. It has very special physical and electromagnetic properties, which is why its applications are sought.
Juan Zaragoza: For example, graphite would be the tip of a pencil. The characoal which we use to write.
Dr. Pablo Campra: Yes, it would. From graphite, graphene can be obtained simply by using cellophane, removing layers, and repeating the process many times. And you can end up with a single layer of carbon atoms. That would be graphene.
Juan Zaragoza: Which would also be transparent, I imagine. Being single-layered, it would let light through.
Dr. Pablo Campra: That depends. When you get a single layer it appears transparent or translucent, which is difficult to detect by microscopy. But as I say, if one buys a standard graphene solution —there are many commercial ones—, normally, it comes stacked in layers and appears as dark-colored lumps because many overlapping layers appear, even though it's graphene. So, it appears under a microscope in two different ways: as dark lumps, carbonaceous type, and if it's subjected to ultrasound, to sonication, well, individual layers can be exfoliated, which appear as a series of transparent sheets. It's a very characteristic appearance.
Juan Zaragoza: Alright. And before we go into how this graphene oxide works and why it's important and why it could be in the vaccine, how did the initiative come about that you have analyzed, specifically, several vaccine vials that have been used here, in Spain, against the COVID? How did the initiative come about to analyze these vials? Where did this come from?
Dr. Pablo Campra: Well, this came from Ricardo Delgado, from a channel called La Quinta Columna. They made a call because they raised this hypothesis that the vaccine could contain graphene. So, they asked the university for help to analyze it and detect it. And I volunteered. Then, in the first work that we did before the summer, a series of objects with that appearance that I have mentioned were found. But that was left unfinished because only the microscopic image isn't enough. It's necessary to do either spectroscopic or chemical analysis to confirm that this structure is there, which is what we have finally been able to finish after many months.
This could have been done in weeks, but here the collaboration we have had is minimal. So, we have to look for the equipment, to get up to date with the techniques... And all this takes time. But c'mon, this work could have been done in weeks with the collaboration of really specialized people.
Juan Zaragoza: So, you haven't had much institutional support. Have you had any kind of support to carry out these analyses?
Dr. Pablo Campra: No, no. None. This has been done on an individual basis and with a lot of effort because, well... The scientific research system has more than enough capacity to analyze this material and many others. But here, the system isn't participating in this work that's, simply, a counter-analysis, of what's declared to be in the vaccines, which I believe is necessary. A totally independent analysis of the companies that are marketing other products and that, many of us believe, is not being done by the regulatory agencies. At least not publicly, nor periodically done, as it should be. Per batch.
Juan Zaragoza: Alright. What are the vials that you have been able to analyze?
Dr. Pablo Campra: We have analyzed, specifically, in this second batch, seven of the samples that have arrived. Because that's, also, a difficulty: to get vials of a total of four different vaccines. And from each vial, we have taken a series of minimum samples, 10 microliters, and we have tried to detect this material. The analysis that has been done is qualitative, not quantitative. It was simply a detection analysis. To find out whether this material is present or not. To try to look for that structure that is detected by spectroscopy.
Juan Zaragoza: Uh-huh.
Dr. Pablo Campra: In a second phase, what we'd have to do is to quantify how much is there. And then, also, to carry out a more universal study. A statistically significant study of a much larger number of vials to know what's the degree of presence of these products. Whether it's only the result of contamination in those batches or to find out the extent of this presence. It's potentially toxic product. And that's what has to be evaluated, and that's not covered by the emergency authorization. Neither in the FDA nor in the European EMA.
So, the work we have done is simply a counter-analysis, a contrast independent of what's declared to figure there. And we're only working on the graphene hypothesis because I'm working on this hypothesis because was put to me. But some several other possible substances and objects have been described by other researchers that would need to be investigated as well.
Juan Zaragoza: Alright. What kind of analysis technique have you used?
Dr. Pablo Campra: Well, we have focused on Raman spectroscopy, which is called micro-Raman because it uses the microscope. It couples the image of very small objects —of micro-metric or nano-metric size— on which a monochromatic laser is focused, and a signal called spectrum can be obtained. It's specific to the structure. So, as the particles here are very small, they're very dispersed in a complex matrix, so that's the way to detect them. If it were a solution in which there was only graphene, it'd be done with a technique called macro-Raman, for example, in which you take the whole vial to obtain a signal. But here, we had to look for objects of very small size and do the spectroscopy one by one.
Juan Zaragoza: So you have to look for them, first, optically.
Dr. Pablo Campra: Of course, because this technique couples the visual aspect with the spectrum. So, you cannot dissociate one from the other. You look for objects that could have the appearance of graphene and then you check with the spectrum that this structure is there.
Juan Zaragoza: Very well. And within these objects that were found... Well, you told me that there weren't only objects that could be graphene. How many graphene objects did you find? Did you find them in all the vials? How was the result?
Dr. Pablo Campra: It was a laborious task because it doesn't appear as the majority component, far from it. You have to look for it. You need to know how to detect it, and you have to do a lot of screening, a lot of tracking. But our objective was, simply, to detect it and confirm its presence. Then, as I said, the next step would be to quantify its level. The average mean level in the samples we have, and then in other similar samples that we haven't analyzed, to see the statistical significance of the finding of this presence. And then it's up to the manufacturers to give an answer as to what it's doing there. Whether if it's contamination or has some function, that which is not declared in the documents.
And that's what we demand: that periodic or routine analyses be carried out. Like the ones we do in intensive agriculture in Almeria, where routine controls are carried out on all the batches of vegetables that come out. Therefore, the companies, the certifier, and the Government of Andalucia make routine control. Because one cannot trust, simply, a punctual declaration that a private company makes. Even more so in a subject like this.
Juan Zaragoza: Alright. Have you seen any other type of object? We have some images that were published in the technical report. Let's see if we can show them.
Dr. Pablo Campra: Yes. On the vials, in particular, well...
Juan Zaragoza: This one we see here, what would it be? I don't know if this is one of the objects you were talking about.
Dr. Pablo Campra: Yes. That carbonaceous appearance is typical graphene, but this is called 'lump' in English. It's like a dark clump, right? This, most likely, when you focus the laser, will give a characteristic graphene signal. These would be several layers of graphene bonded together. That's why it looks so dark. And they're very easily detected. That's one of the two appearances that graphene appears in a commercial standard that you can buy. The other one is the translucent sheet, much more faded. You can see that it appears at the edge of the droplet.
You put 10 microliter drops. That's another detail because each vial can have 0.3mL. That would be 300 microliters. Or, if they are of another brand, up to 2,000 or 3,000 microliters. And we have only looked in aliquots of 10 microliters. We would have to do a much more intensive scanning. I say again that here we haven't quantified the presence of graphene oxide, we have detected it. It's a binary system: it's either there or not.
Juan Zaragoza: Well, I don't know to what extent... And, I imagine you've only done this with vaccines. I don't know if you have ever analyzed also, with this same methodology or also optically... Last week, in the program, we showed pictures of a trial. An experiment was done by a well-known man in the United States, Dr. Fleming, and he showed images, some of them similar to what we're seeing here. He said that what was there was dirt or substances that shouldn't be there inside the vial and that it should be checked because it should be transparent, like a saline solution. Or, in any case, to be able to see those lipid nanoparticles that should have a spherical shape. That's what Pfizer and Moderna told us, where the messenger ribonucleic acid is included.
But this wasn't the case.
There were some other objects, so to speak, or substances that are seen under the microscope. Some of them had a crystalline appearance. Others looked more like this than we see here, which could be graphene oxide. I don't know if you guys have also been able to see any other type of object that wasn't or didn't test positive on the analysis as to whether it was graphene or not.
Dr. Pablo Campra: Yes, well. We... I've been observing vaccines for months and what surprises me is the number of objects of quite a large size that there are, micrometric, tens of microns. Because the magnifications I use are small, they are 40 or 600, at most, in an optical microscope. There's a typology of objects that are quite repetitive and that have nothing to do with what's declared in the authorizations of these products. Because it's assumed that there are only nanoparticles with RNA inside in one type of vaccine. Others with adenoviruses with RNA inside, and that's not to be seen under an optical microscope.
Above all, you don't have to see the typologies that we're seeing, which we don't know what they are. Graphene, you also see large fibers, a sphere, lumps... You see a lot of things that we don't know if they're contamination or not. The manufacturers are the ones who have to respond. Say if they are failures in the quality control of the products. We don't know.
But the fact is that there are a lot of objects that are very easy to see. They are seen under low magnification, and they shouldn't be there, because I've worked with sealed vials and in a laminar flow hood that prevents contamination from occurring. So, what we demand is that counter-analyses be made or that the companies give us an explanation because up to now they have not given us any.
Juan Zaragoza: What could be the purpose of the presence of graphene oxide in vaccines?
Dr. Pablo Campra: Well, there are several patents and publications. In theory, it could help the RNA to enter the cell and to be better distributed throughout the body. That's patented. Here, the problem is that they aren't declared neither in the products nor in the authorization. If they were declared, there would be no problem. They would have given the explanation: 'We've put this in for this purpose.'
Juan Zaragoza: Graphene oxide, for example, could be part of the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, specifically. There's a part of those lipid nanoparticles that they say are part of the 'secret formula'. They're patented, and they haven't given us all the details of that formula. Could this be part of those nanoparticles? Or would we be talking about different objects?
Dr. Pablo Campra: It could be. This is the anomaly I'm telling you about. I work in the intensive agriculture system in Almeria, and there's no secret formula allowed for anything. Here, everything that's used in the greenhouses is controlled, tested, and then continuously monitored, periodically, with random and unannounced inspections. So, it cannot be that an experimental vaccination is being carried out —because it's not approved—. This is an emergency authorization where there's no continuous control of the composition that's declared in the batches. So, you don't know what all these objects are. They may have toxicity. Graphene, of course, has potential toxicity. But you also have to evaluate the quantities they have, the mode of administration, the type of graphene that goes in them... Because talking about graphene is like talking about plastic. And to make a toxicity assessment, which I haven't done.
Juan Zaragoza: It'd be much more complex to do. And who would be responsible for doing that kind of evaluation? What national or supranational bodies should be reviewing those compounds?
Dr. Pablo Campra: Yes, well. In theory, the FDA should have done it in the United States and the EMA in Spain. The Spanish Medicines Agency. Well, I think that... Hmm... How is it said...? They leave this issue in the hands of the EMA. But, of course, I haven't seen uploaded to this agency's website any type of counter-analysis. And not just one, because only one wouldn't be enough. They would have to periodically upload batch analyses, and I haven't seen them do that. If they have, they certainly haven't made it public.
Juan Zaragoza: I seem to remember —reading some time ago—, that the EMA did check some of the vials on the quality of the messenger ribonucleic acid in the vaccine, specifically from Pfizer. Those chains were not complete, i.e., they were fragmented in a relatively high percentage. And this was, supposedly, a quality study of what the vaccine had to contain to assess its efficacy. This was very early on before the vaccine was authorized and began to be used. Theoretically, before production. But after that, it's true. I've been reading, looking for this information or this documentation. And I don't know that it has been published anywhere. I don't know if you have been able to get in touch with any of these official bodies and ask them or if they have contacted you after the publication of this technical report.
Dr. Pablo Campra: No. The problem here is that the scientific system is totally passive. Totally passive in this activity. Even the Spanish Medicines Agency doesn't delegate in the EMA either. And, here, the few of us who're making observations both in Spain and abroad as independent scientists, there's no type of institutional activity to carry out these counter-analyses. And then, what you've told me about RNA analysis, I haven't seen any independent one either. Apart from what has been stated in the authorizations, where there's no independent analysis by an independent laboratory and with total transparency. But here, we're not only looking for RNA. We're looking at a series of objects of quite a significant size. Not only tgraphene. Other objects require many techniques to be applied. If you're just looking for RNA, you may or may not find RNA, but what about everything else? You have to tell me what it is. Mr. manufacturer must do it, or Mr. control agency, right? In other words, here, we have to apply different techniques, multidisciplinary, to have a complete view of the actual composition, not of the vaccines in general, but of each of the batches that come out.
Juan Zaragoza: Correct. And in the end... How can there be informed consent if we don't know what we're being inoculated with? If what they declare —perhaps it's possible in the light of this report, it seems so—, at least, in these analyzed vials... What's in those vials doesn't coincide with what is declared in the ingredients of the vaccines. And that's something that I, at least personally, find quite worrying.
Dr. Pablo Campra: Well, they may say it's contamination. There's always the possibility of contamination. So, therefore, what we have to do is to continue these analyses. In other words, this is an investigation that's open. It's necessary to confirm, with a sufficient number of samples, the presence of what we've found. And other things. To rule out, well, what I have said: failure of the method used, contamination, artifact... That's to say, it requires a thorough investigation. We have plenty of technical capacity in Spain to do it. What happens is that it's not being done by those who really have that capacity. Because they haven't been involved or they don't want to be involved. But this could be done in days.
Juan Zaragoza: It could and should be done.
Dr. Pablo Campra: Indeed.
Juan Zaragoza: Well, we'll leave it here, but surely, we'll come back to this subject in the future. I'd like to thank Dr. Campra for the work done because he has done it on his own initiative without help, which isn't easy at all. I think it's important for all of us. And also to urge the official bodies to pick up the baton and analyze and publish the analysis results of these vials to know, exactly, what we're being inoculated.
Dr. Pablo Campra: If I may. More than the official bodies —the confidence that some of us had in them has diminished after what we have been through— I'd call on independent researchers who have more than enough capacity to do this.
Juan Zaragoza: Very well, we're laying down the gauntlet today. Hopefully, not one or two, but all those who have the capacity or are willing to pick it up. And we'll continue to talk about this issue. Thank you very much for connecting with us, for the work you're doing. I think it helps a lot of people, and it's commendable. -I'm very grateful for all this.
Dr. Pablo Campra: I thank you. Thank you, and congratulations on your program.
Juan Zaragoza: My pleasure. Alright. And just to close the subject —because this is the first time we've discussed graphene oxide in the program—, I think it's important that we talk about a couple of things that Dr. Campra mentioned. One of them is a patent whose image we can see right now. And that's that there's indeed a patent in China, for the use of graphene oxide, specifically reduced graphene oxide in recombinant coronavirus vaccines. Sounds familiar, doesn't it? Recombinant adenovirus vaccines are those of Pfizer and Janssen —which are no longer used in Spain—, which contains graphene. And, in this case, graphene would be the vehicle that transfers the content of the vaccine, the active content of the vaccine, to the different cells.
That's concerning this patent. But I also wanted to share —and these are two or three hints that we're going to share today— before we end the program. In which both of them are in agreement, is that other cells, from our innate immune system, specifically neutrophils, when we do a regular blood test, that's where we're going to find them. Neutrophils would respond in all cases, attacking, so to speak, this 'pathogen' which would be graphene oxide, specifically reduced graphene oxide. And that would indeed increase some inflammatory cytokines. And that could be seen in a blood test.
Alright. What has also been seen and compiled in this study that I'm talking about is that there are different mechanisms by which graphene oxide can cause toxicity at the cellular level. And there we have an image. I recommend that you then look at it quietly at home. What would it produce? It'd produce free radicals inside the cell itself and at the mitochondrial level, and that would cause the cell to be damaged. It'd deplete those enzymes that try to scavenge the free radicals, for example.
Well, we've heard of N-acetylcysteine, which is a precursor to glutathione. And glutathione is that cellular antioxidant par excellence that would eliminate this. Graphene could produce mitochondrial damage, the mitochondria could be dying and signaling for cell suicide. It could also produce —and this has been demonstrated— in studies, DNA damage. That's a mutation of our genetic code within the cell nucleus itself where it'd gain access. It can also produce exaggerated inflammatory responses, for example from macrophages as we were talking about before, but from other cells. For example, in platelets and this could produce clots. And we've seen clotting pictures within the adverse effects of vaccines. It could also produce a process of apoptosis or cell suicide. The cell sees that it's not viable to continue living, and the mitochondria activate this suicide mechanism, which is chemical. It could trigger autophagy, but rather pathological autophagy. It could trigger necrosis and produce epigenetic changes. These epigenetic changes —like DNA changes— can, eventually, degenerate into mutagenesis. A mutation of the nucleus of the genetic code can produce cancer cells. And let's close with two solutions. I always like to end on a positive note.
What are the things we can do? Well, the first study that we see here is about Vitamin C. This study shows that vitamin C in rather high amounts, protects our DNA code integrity and repairs the DNA in our cell nucleus. And the other substance that would also have this same effect. We already know that vitamin C also gets rid of all those free radicals. It's an antioxidant. And the other effect we could also get with niacin, which is vitamin B3.
Alright. With these two tools that will help us to prevent all this, we'd like to thank Dr. Campra. And we're going to continue talking and researching this issue.